Cherokee wisdom

[Gnomercy]

An old Cherokee Chief sat in his hut on the reservation, smoking the ceremonial pipe, eyeing the U.S. government officials sent to interview him.
"Chief," one official began, "you have observed the white man for 90 years. You have observed his wars and his material wealth. You have seen his progress and the damage he has done..."

The Chief nodded that it was so.

The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

The Chief stared at the government officials for over a minute, and then calmly replied:

"When white man found the land, Indians were running it with no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver. Women did all the work, medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing, all night making love to the women." The Chief leaned back and smiled, "White man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that?"

[Carolyn]

:D funny.

Wonder why noone else has replied yet? :confused:

[Gade Terbob]

Re: Slow reply....
Maybe because when it absolutely true, there is not much else to be said.

[Bison]

Originally posted by Gade Terbob
Maybe because when it absolutely true, there is not much else to be said.

I agree 100%

[crystal_er]

If one looks at the encounters between Europeans and Native Americans during the fifteenth century and beyond, it is obvious to see a trend of invasion, conquest, slavery, and eventually death lurking about the historical documents describing that time. The expeditions into the New World by Europeans during the fifteenth century can’t be easily labeled as invasions. These conquests were more of a sort of cultural exchange than anything else. Especially on the part of the Europeans, who sought out to Christianize the world. Such as stated by Christopher Columbus, “As I saw that they were very friendly to us, and perceived that they could be much more easily converted to our holy faith by gentle means than by force,....” Another statement by Columbus supports this as well. “It appears to me, that the people are ingenious, and would be good servants; and I am of opinion that they would very readily become Christians, as they appear to have no religion.” The Europeans perception of the Americans were all relatively the same. They described their life as being barbaric, and their appearance to be naked, and have dark hair upon their heads, which was coarse. This shocked the Europeans since they came from a civilized culture. Not all encounters with the Americans went well. According to Amerigo Vespucci, he encountered a group of natives on the shore which showed signs of war. After a long battle, and after burning their village, they took 250 people as prisoners, leaving many wounded or dead. But yet the Europeans suffered only one death. Again, the conquests on the Europeans into the Americas should not be considered a series of invasions, even though there were accounts of battle. They should be looked at as more of an expedition into the “New World”, as the Europeans would call it, to exchange cultural knowledge and Christianize it as well.

What types of Indian behavior, rituals and customs did Europeans typically misunderstand or mis interpret? What myths of Indian society resulted? After being isolated from Europe for so long it was only a matter of time before the two worlds collided, the simpler world of the indians with the more advanced world of the europeans. Not only was the European world different but the Indian world was multifacted within itself. Out of the collision of these two worlds there was bound to be some misconceptions and misinterpretations. The europeans often misconstrued certain indian behaviors. The male indians were perceived to be lazy since the females tended the fields as well as the home while the males went hunting or fishing. Hunting and fishing to the europeans was a reacreational activity not a necessity for survival. It was customary for an Indian male to have arranged sexaul relations if his wife was pregnant or nursing. the europeans saw this as indulging in every kind of intemperance and wicked lust. The indians were seen as naive because they had no interest in amassing wealth, therefore the europeans concluded that the indians were childlike and not to be treated as equals. Indians were also seen as heathens because they worshipped a large number of gods. The indians believed in each being having a different level of manitou. Out of this belief many different rituals were born. To appease or woo powerful spiritual entities, individuals would pray and/or sacifice valuable items such as furs,food, or tobacco but when the entire community sought divine assistance to ensure successful hunts, good harvsets, or victories they called upon shamans. These rituals reinforced European beliefs that the indians were heathens. Many myths of indian society resulted from European misconceptions. These myths included but were not limited to: the indians being naive,blood thirsty sasvasges who indulged in every kind of wicked lust and performed strange rituals. the europeans unjustly labeled the indians because their way of life was different. European perceptions were based on life as they knew it and they felt that they way of life was the right way. Just because someone does something a different way doesn't mean it is wrong or of lesser value.

In 1492, Columbus opened the door between the Old and New Worlds, catalyzing major changes for cultures on both sides of the Atlantic.

The first encounters between Native Americans and Europeans in the Mississippi Valley sparked conflict and cooperation as cultures from these two worlds struggled to understand and interact with each other. The fact that similar struggles are still going on in the 21st century proves that studying history is never irrelevant.

[Nedani]

crystal_er - Welcome to AOH and congrats for a great post. Keep them coming.

[crystal_er]

crystal_er - Welcome to AOH and congrats for a great post. Keep them coming.

Thank you very much Nedani.I maybe was thrown by seeing the expresions of others here.I couldn't beleave if they were cherokee's why would they be picking on there own ancestors?So sence I saw that,I wanted them to understand the real reason things happend the way they did.I mean could you see a women out there in the feilds trying to hunt??The men were lazy "no".They were raising there familey.Thank God I wouldn't be here if they didn't :p anyway I hope you liked this.The link for the rest of the story is at the bottom of the page.

History of the
Nacion Cherokee de Mexico
(Cherokee Nation of Mexico)
“When the one Creator of all things,
U-nay-kla-nah-hi, made the first Cherokees,
the stars began to twinkle with approval;
thus it is our responsibility to live up to these heavenly expectations.”
Chief Jahtlohi Rogers

When you learn that Cherokee history is a multi-colored rope,
woven by our ancestors from the beginning of time. Their weaving was strong and good enough to get us here, but not without many, many of the strands breaking. Then during thunderstorms, you will be able to hear the old ones chant “Be warned, Cherokee! Weave stronger, Cherokee! Be warned”
Chief Jahtlohi Rogers
Osiyo. Our grandfathers’ most ancient stories tell us that we Cherokees were in exodus and walked a great distance when we came to the ocean. With faith we built rafts and crossed the ocean, coming from the East to the West and established a life for ourselves in this new land of the Americas. About 1000 B.C., a people from a rubber tree forest invaded Eastern Mexico. The indigenous Mexicans called these newcomers the Olmec. They were a people completely obsessed with magic; we avoided them by traveling to the North.

Our Cherokee traditional stories interlock and agree with several of the ancient pre-Columbian Mayan and Mexican legends which tell of a people arriving from the East who believed in a single, benevolent, providing God. Some of these travelers from the East had different coloration of eyes and skin shade; some had beards. The Maya and other early Mexicans drew pictures of these people, who wore hats and turbans not unlike those the Cherokee have always worn and wear today. The Mexican legends said that these people would return in time.

It is not known to this day which people or combination of peoples built the great pyramid city of the Valley of Mexico, but the Cherokees were living in Mexico at that time, as were the Tlamatinimi (which means “wise men” in the ancient Mexican language). They were a pre-Columbian group of intellectuals, engineers, and astronomers who shared a common belief or connection with the Cherokee in that their religion also had only one God who was merciful, who had created all things, and who would provide what you needed, not necessarily what you wished. This ancient Mexican society, the Tlamatinimi, was supremely rational and civilized, arguably even more civilized than Greeks or Romans. Their society existed within different Mexican civilizations and were unfazed by the threat of a gallery of monster gods used to motivate and control the populace. In 1450 A.D. they were centered at Texcoco.

Cherokee migration legend tells of our exodus north, three to four thousand years ago, past the river of the ferocious ones, which we believe to be the Rio Grande River where the cannibalistic Karankawas lived. In the mid-1800’s, Stephen F. Austin saw this tribe in person and described them as very handsome and intimidating, with men averaging 7 ft. in height and women 6 ft.
The Cherokee pushed on to the big waters of the Mississippi, then on to the headwaters of the Ohio, where they built walled cities and huge mounds for burial. The Delaware came from the west and, with assistance from the Iroquois federation, fought to remove the Cherokee, for the time period of 7 chiefs, or approximately 200 years, before the Cherokee went East to the mountains and coast. The exodus was pressured by war to continue south with the Cherokees arriving in the Georgia area in approximately 800 to 1000 A.D
The first European or Spaniard to visit the Cherokee in the Georgia area was the explorer conquistador DeSoto in 1540. His official writings astonishingly state that many of the Cherokee were light skinned while, of course, many were not. De Soto noted “some with light brown and blond hair equal in coloration to some of my Spanish soldiers”. Of the hundred or more indigenous tribes visited by this Spanish explorer, no other tribe would be noted for the great mystery of being racially mixed like the Cherokee. According to oral tradition and existing written history, we know we have been mixed for several thousand years. Cherokee Chief Oconostota, whose forefathers had all been chiefs, had himself been chief for 60 years when, in 1782, he told Col. Sevier about the Cherokee history of the Welch people who had come in approximately 1100. The Chiefs story also agrees with the Welsh legend of Prince Maddox, who was said to have come with ten shiploads of white people and settled on the Hiawasse River. The Cherokee fought with them, took prisoners, and negotiated the retreat of the Welsh, who joined the Mandan tribe on Mobile Bay. (This is stated in an existing document dated 1808 which Col. Sevier sent to Major Stoddard, who was trying to locate these racially mixed Indians.)

The first Cherokees to return to Mexico went in 1720 to the mountains of Coahuila.

In 1822, a newly independent Republic of Mexico granted the Cherokees freedom and immigration rights to the eastern part of the Mexican province of Texas.

well Anyway I could go on and on It is a great story.If you want more I found it on this page which is great..And it also has great pictures also. :wavey: http://www.cherokeenationmexico.com/history.html

[Gade Terbob]

I maybe was thrown by seeing the expresions of others here.I couldn't beleave if they were cherokee's why would they be picking on there own ancestors?

I have carefully read and re-read this thread and I fail to see where anyone was "picking" on their [sp] ancestors.

I think you should know that my Grandfather was a full blood Cherokee. He was born in Nowata County, Oklahoma. His mother walked the trail of tears from what is now called the Carolinas. I'm a registered voter in the Cherokee Nation.

In my mind, the original post simply indicated the simple truth that Cherokees had a pretty good life here before being "civilized" by the European settlers.

I resent the implication that the Nation of Cherokees need someone to stand up for them. We're quite self sustaining, Thank You.

[Gnomercy]

In the wonderful world of the internet and it's typeface communication, it is often difficult, if not impossible, to convey the true meaning, intention or spirit behind ones words. I originated this post with the motives that GadeTerbob mentioned. My joke failed to convey what I intended to crystal_er and she excersized her right to voice her opinion about it. I think that the voicing of that opinion, and the words chosen to do so, fell short of their motives, just as mine did, as they were read by GadeTerbob.

The bottom line is that, as with all our communications in life, and to a greater extent over the internet, it is always best that we sit back and try to see things through the eyes of the author rather than operating on our initial perceptions. Feel free to express your opinions... this isn't a police state. So long as there are no blatant personal attacks on anyone, I won't moderate it out. However, before you express your opinions, please take the time to make sure that you're responding in the most appropriate way possible.

I'm not posting this in direct response to any one person, but rather as a reminder to everyone that understanding communication is hampered when you're denied things like tone of voice, inflection, body language, etc. I think this is something that all of us, myself included, need to keep in mind.

[Gade Terbob]

I appreciate that, Gnomercy. You'll notice, from the time stamps, that I went to supper while I pondered a reply.

Unfortunately, what you see in my previous post is my best, most reasoned, calmest reply.

If I misunderstood the point of crystal_er's post, I apologise in advance.

[crystal_er]

Well I guess you did this is the joke i was origanaly replying too.Nothing that you said offended me.but,thinking our ancestors were humerous was not on my mind that day.I did feel that we should reply more on the topic.Sence nothing more had been said sence gnomercy posted and she joked about it I thought I would add something nice to the site.I am very sorry if I said anything to offend anyone.but,I will try to watch what I say from now on.Thanks for the insight.









Posted by Carolyn - 03-21-2003 at 07:05 AM
funny.

Wonder why noone else has replied yet?


An old Cherokee Chief sat in his hut on the reservation, smoking the ceremonial pipe, eyeing the U.S. government officials sent to interview him.
"Chief," one official began, "you have observed the white man for 90 years. You have observed his wars and his material wealth. You have seen his progress and the damage he has done..."

The Chief nodded that it was so.

The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

The Chief stared at the government officials for over a minute, and then calmly replied:

"When white man found the land, Indians were running it with no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver. Women did all the work, medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing, all night making love to the women." The Chief leaned back and smiled, "White man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that?"